What is the problem and what is the remedy?

Hello all!

How does everyone think the leadership weekend went? What will be the results of it?

As a pew-sitter of the church, I think our church needs to change because (a) I do not believe we as a community are meeting each others needs well, and (b) I do not believe we as a community are reaching our community with the good news about Jesus well.

As the result of several discussions with several people regarding our church, I believe that we are not a community which cares for each other well. It seems we do not know how to care for each other. I think homegroups are a key entry point into an effective community, and it surprises me that the vast majority of this church (including its leaders) are not involved in intentional small groups.

Does anybody agree with me? Does anybody disagree? If we are to change, what do you think the way forward is?

-Jacob Sawyer

I would ask that same question about small groups

Why are people not involved at this level. Im not by any means implying its bad, just curious.

Hi Jacob, all, anyone...

I agree that our church needs to change.

Actually all churches need to be in some state of change. I beleive that God is dynamic and humans are dynamic. We are designed to be constantly growing and developing - intellectually, emotionally, spiritually. That bible college dvd on world view you shared with us was very cool - especially goldsby-smiths view that we are designed for infinite growth!

Unfortunately humans seem to like safety and gravitate to a place where they either stop growing and like being static or are too scared to change for fear of conflict and/or loss. This seems to be the Army's particular problem in the western part of its world anyway. Whats with our 19th century uniforms? With all due respect to the useful aspects they provide in social ministry, they are an impediment to reaching our communities. I reckon Booth would laugh at us (in love) for holding onto methodology that was useful in the 19th century and encourage us to get into the 21st! Paul would say 'I become all things to all people'.

I don't want to be rude to anyone at all - I've worn the uniform and it takes guts to walk around in public with it on. If you do or have, I reckon you've got the guts and humility to serve God. But let's take that attitude and make it as effective as possible in reaching the lost.

Which leads me back to change and our church.

Sara and I have journeyed through about 4 churches in our 12 years of marriage. From good to bad, pentecostal to traditional, established to church plant. All had good points and bad. All had some amazing people really trying to make a difference.

Browns Bay sallies seems to us to have some excellent people and some really good things going on. The trick would seem to be to take it to a new level, to find God's specific purposes for now and turn that into reality.

My sense is that it belongs equally to the officers, the elders or leadership and the congregation. The officers can block it but can't do it on their own. The elders have the primary responsibility and opportunity. The congregation have to want it and have to own it in faith. Actually, any of us can influence change profoundly. Jesus said that faith as small as a mustard bush could move a mountain!

But what's to be done? I don't know precisely. I have some ideas. I hear lots of snippets of desire from a range of people from officers to young people. They all sound pretty good. We all need to pray and our elders need to try and get a sense of leading from God and also from the body of believers.

I'm hoping that those involved in the leadership retreat will report back to us and ask us to contribute.

And what about those excellent people who get together to pray for us on Friday nights? Have they heard from God?

And failing all this, maybe we can start doing what seems right to us. I haven't quite figured out what the difference between God speaking to me and just doing what seems right and trusting the spirit within, is

But before I express my own ideas on the way ahead, let me leave you confused with my ideas on the process!

Brett Herkt

This is a funny old thing. Personally I know how valuable small groups are for a whole bunch of reasons but after 20 plus years of attendance, and priorotising my time in recent years to attend High5 rather than attending home group I have gotten out of the habit and am struggling to re-engage. Maybe it seems 'same old' to me (not the people but the routine). However! I am real keen to join a home group while I am down in Wellington!! Why is that? I can't self analyse this cause I am not self aware enough for that - but maybe it is because I'll have new needs. Certainly I want to get connected to a new faith community and and.....you get the picture.
Forget me - that is boring. The observation however is that maybe the catalyst/motivation behind joining a small group is to have specific needs which you believe can be met by this format. Which is even more weird cause I'm hearing that the Church is not currently meeting peoples needs...??
Anyway I am not suggesting that we should create more needs (hehe) -no no - but maybe this whole 'fresh start' 'new beginnings' 'good new reason' to seekout friendships etc...may trigger some ideas on incentivising/shaping - not that we would want to social engineer or anything...

Hi, I've been meaning to clarify that when I said 'leaders' or 'leadership' etc. in my post, I was meaning all of the 'official' church leaders, elders, and officers.

It is a shame that only one of them seems to be interested in participating in this discussion (thanks Phil!). I think that this is a great idea Miles, and good on you for making an effort to open up the discussion that has been lurking in different shadowy cliques. I would encourage anyone who is reading to add in their little bit, even if it is anonymous.

I agree Brett, I've been hearing some awesome ideas from different individuals in our congregation, but it seems we have had no real avenue to discuss these ideas. So why can't we make this the avenue? By putting all of these ideas in together and open to critique I think we could come up with some pretty awesome stuff for our church family.

How do people think last Sunday went? It was the type of thing that us youth leaders were trying to encourage more of in our Sunday morning services, and we led by example. So was it good or bad? Some constructive criticism would be really helpful as part of an effort for us to push forward. (Communal learning - is there still a place for preaching? What do you guys think?)

It seems that we are in agreement in regards to our need to change. But change towards what? What does it mean for us to be an organic movement as opposed to an established institution? As Brett brought out - what would it look like for us to embrace the spirit of William Booth in our new context today? Does anybody have any cool ideas for something new we could do to further the Kingdom of God in Browns Bay?

I would also like to reiterate Brett's questions to do with the leadership weekend and the friday night prayer team.

And in regards to your comment Phil, is it that people see small groups as irrelevant towards their own needs?

Have we become too individualistic?

To conclude, I have been going deeper and deeper into the wonder of the Gospel and the story of the Bible throughout my studies. It is so much more profound, exciting and revolutionary than I have ever been told growing up. And we are called into this story.
I often feel really really discouraged by the huge disparity between that to which we are called and in how we live, both as the Church and individually. So my desire to discuss these issues and move forward as a community comes from discontentment not just from our congregation, but also the wider Church internationally and in the way I myself live. As cheesey as it sounds, my prayer for us all echoes Paul's to the Ephesians -

"For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen."

Well i'm very new to this so forgive me if I muck it up. I'm not a blogger. Am I reading it wrong or have their been 88 people view this topic? If so, i'm amazed there is not more replys...?

[[i][b]"It seems we do not know how to care for each other"...

WOW! I know of sooo many situations within our Church Community where people are being so well cared for and i'm surprised that people can say this is something we arent good at. When I say "We" of course I dont mean that everyone is gifted in this area but a large number of people in our corps are. There are many amazing people within our midst who are constantly giving of themselves - doing/helping/listening/praying/cooking/driving/forgiving etc for others as best as they can. And i'm not talking about just one or two. I'd love to start a big long list of all the amazing carers in our community but I don't want to embarass people by naming them.

Maybe I hear of stories and situations more because of my role at Church, i'm not sure, but even without that my personal experiences of being cared for have been many. It's a shame that there are some people out there who are feeling not cared for, and I would be interested to hear from them to find out more specifically about why they feel that way. Obviously no ones perfect, and people cant be expected to get it right all the time, but if I had to pick an area that I felt we are lacking in it would certainly not be caring for each other.

What do others think? Am I the only one who is encouraged and blessed by the devotion and caring of so many people in our corps community? Or is it that we just dont reflect on or share enough of these experiences with others?